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	<title>Comments on: Why I Shouldn&#8217;t Check My Referrals</title>
	<link>http://twinkies.bastetweb.com/2007/11/29/why-i-shouldnt-check-my-referrals/</link>
	<description>Crunchy Freaks R Us</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 19:05:14 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Hilary</title>
		<link>http://twinkies.bastetweb.com/2007/11/29/why-i-shouldnt-check-my-referrals/#comment-7728</link>
		<dc:creator>Hilary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2007 03:21:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://twinkies.bastetweb.com/2007/11/29/why-i-shouldnt-check-my-referrals/#comment-7728</guid>
		<description>The controversy I saw was that people were turning this thread into a formula moms vs. breastfeeding moms issue, when it was not. I thought it was inconsiderate to you.

I believe you that you may have been in groups of breastfeeding moms who may have been rude to non breastfeeders, but I think that is a rare dynamic that is way overblown on line. In reality, breastfeeding moms are the underdog and I am sick of being accused of being a bully in conversations where it just isn't happening, I haven't ever participated in any such bullying, and I think it is incredibly uncommon outside of insular groups such as MDC. These conversations get derailed into breastfeeding bully bashing sessions when it isn't the topic at hand and isn't present in the conversation. Just a pet peeve of mine, since I find it hard to be part of a discussion involving either breastfeeding or formula online without someone telling me what judgmental bullies all or most of us breastfeeders are, especially those of us who are lactation consultants, which I have been. 

And, I find it unlikely that even in these insular communities, that there is not sympathy for the moms who struggle with breastfeeding. I think it is mostly the moms who decide not to even try for reasons that would not match the priorities of the breastfeeder, that is when you see criticism. Not when someone struggles for months and "fails". 

Since the conversation has swung back to this, let's discuss the research. I was not accusing someone who just disagreed with me that they were unfamiliar with the science. I have taken classes on breastfeeding and on epidemiology, and I am not just being a snot when I say I understand the research. The research on the effect of breastfeeding and IQ is most accurately analyzed in studies that seek to determine that exact effect. So, for example, studies on siblings comparing breastfeeding and IQ are much stronger than a meta analysis of 43 studies, some of which were examining IQ, some of which weren't, some of which tried to take into account mother's IQ and socioeconomic status, and some that didn't, or a simple cohort study. 

So, for example, this study on sibling pairs:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&#38;Cmd=ShowDetailView&#38;TermToSearch=16336548&#38;ordinalpos=10&#38;itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
which examined this very thing would be a much stronger statement on the effect of breastfeeding on IQ than, for example, this study
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&#38;Cmd=ShowDetailView&#38;TermToSearch=17320351&#38;ordinalpos=2&#38;itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
which was not seeking to eliminate confounders by using only siblings. 

According to this study:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&#38;Cmd=ShowDetailView&#38;TermToSearch=17237337&#38;ordinalpos=4&#38;itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
the "most consistent effect" found int he 50 or so studies on breastfeeding released EACH MONTH is its effect on cognition and later intelligence tests.

So, it is really easy to take the conclusions of one study, or one metaanalyses, and say "It's been disproven, get over it" but that is not the case. The preponderance of evidence does agree with an effect. Is it huge? Probably not. Are mothers who don't or can't breastfeeding "dooming" their kids to average intelligence? I don't think so.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The controversy I saw was that people were turning this thread into a formula moms vs. breastfeeding moms issue, when it was not. I thought it was inconsiderate to you.</p>
<p>I believe you that you may have been in groups of breastfeeding moms who may have been rude to non breastfeeders, but I think that is a rare dynamic that is way overblown on line. In reality, breastfeeding moms are the underdog and I am sick of being accused of being a bully in conversations where it just isn&#8217;t happening, I haven&#8217;t ever participated in any such bullying, and I think it is incredibly uncommon outside of insular groups such as MDC. These conversations get derailed into breastfeeding bully bashing sessions when it isn&#8217;t the topic at hand and isn&#8217;t present in the conversation. Just a pet peeve of mine, since I find it hard to be part of a discussion involving either breastfeeding or formula online without someone telling me what judgmental bullies all or most of us breastfeeders are, especially those of us who are lactation consultants, which I have been. </p>
<p>And, I find it unlikely that even in these insular communities, that there is not sympathy for the moms who struggle with breastfeeding. I think it is mostly the moms who decide not to even try for reasons that would not match the priorities of the breastfeeder, that is when you see criticism. Not when someone struggles for months and &#8220;fails&#8221;. </p>
<p>Since the conversation has swung back to this, let&#8217;s discuss the research. I was not accusing someone who just disagreed with me that they were unfamiliar with the science. I have taken classes on breastfeeding and on epidemiology, and I am not just being a snot when I say I understand the research. The research on the effect of breastfeeding and IQ is most accurately analyzed in studies that seek to determine that exact effect. So, for example, studies on siblings comparing breastfeeding and IQ are much stronger than a meta analysis of 43 studies, some of which were examining IQ, some of which weren&#8217;t, some of which tried to take into account mother&#8217;s IQ and socioeconomic status, and some that didn&#8217;t, or a simple cohort study. </p>
<p>So, for example, this study on sibling pairs:<br />
<a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&amp;Cmd=ShowDetailView&amp;TermToSearch=16336548&amp;ordinalpos=10&amp;itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&amp;Cmd=ShowDetailView&amp;TermToSearch=16336548&amp;ordinalpos=10&amp;itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum</a><br />
which examined this very thing would be a much stronger statement on the effect of breastfeeding on IQ than, for example, this study<br />
<a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&amp;Cmd=ShowDetailView&amp;TermToSearch=17320351&amp;ordinalpos=2&amp;itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&amp;Cmd=ShowDetailView&amp;TermToSearch=17320351&amp;ordinalpos=2&amp;itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum</a><br />
which was not seeking to eliminate confounders by using only siblings. </p>
<p>According to this study:<br />
<a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&amp;Cmd=ShowDetailView&amp;TermToSearch=17237337&amp;ordinalpos=4&amp;itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&amp;Cmd=ShowDetailView&amp;TermToSearch=17237337&amp;ordinalpos=4&amp;itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum</a><br />
the &#8220;most consistent effect&#8221; found int he 50 or so studies on breastfeeding released EACH MONTH is its effect on cognition and later intelligence tests.</p>
<p>So, it is really easy to take the conclusions of one study, or one metaanalyses, and say &#8220;It&#8217;s been disproven, get over it&#8221; but that is not the case. The preponderance of evidence does agree with an effect. Is it huge? Probably not. Are mothers who don&#8217;t or can&#8217;t breastfeeding &#8220;dooming&#8221; their kids to average intelligence? I don&#8217;t think so.</p>
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		<title>By: Stacie</title>
		<link>http://twinkies.bastetweb.com/2007/11/29/why-i-shouldnt-check-my-referrals/#comment-7721</link>
		<dc:creator>Stacie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Dec 2007 15:29:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://twinkies.bastetweb.com/2007/11/29/why-i-shouldnt-check-my-referrals/#comment-7721</guid>
		<description>Hilary -- I think you are making a controversy where none exists.  No one here (other than a few anonymous college kids) is debating the value of breast-feeding.  Eppie made a joke.  Kim took it amiss.  Eppie apologized.  End of issue.  

As to whether breast-feeding actually makes kids smarter (or formula feeding makes them dumber depending on how you want to frame the issue) I don't think it is quite as cut and dried as you would like to make it out to be.  The answer seems to remain a "maybe" or a "depends."  However, there is no question that breast-feeding promotes health.  One article on breast-feeding and IQ that a reader forwarded to me can be found &lt;a href="http://www.slate.com/id/2177681/nav/navoa/" rel="nofollow"&gt;HERE&lt;/a&gt;.  If anyone has other links about the tenuous connection, or not-so-tenuous perhaps - between breast-feeding and IQ please post them.  But let's stop the implication that people who disagree with us must not understand the science.  We are all mostly unknown to one another and to assume that people who don't agree with you are uneducated on the issue at hand is unproductive.

I have heard breast-feeding mothers be quite snippy about formula feeders in my presence.  I "pass" as a breast-feeder because there I am, breast-feeding twins in public so many people don't realize I had to supplement with formula for the first six months.  The lack of compassion you can hear in "closed" groups where "everyone" is a breast-feeding mother can be sad.

Krissy, Heather, Hatchet. Sandi, Kate, Amy -- Thank you.  

Trish - That anecdote is just disgusting.  That poor woman.  I am angry on her behalf.

Leaky - - "udderly"  *snicker*</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hilary &#8212; I think you are making a controversy where none exists.  No one here (other than a few anonymous college kids) is debating the value of breast-feeding.  Eppie made a joke.  Kim took it amiss.  Eppie apologized.  End of issue.  </p>
<p>As to whether breast-feeding actually makes kids smarter (or formula feeding makes them dumber depending on how you want to frame the issue) I don&#8217;t think it is quite as cut and dried as you would like to make it out to be.  The answer seems to remain a &#8220;maybe&#8221; or a &#8220;depends.&#8221;  However, there is no question that breast-feeding promotes health.  One article on breast-feeding and IQ that a reader forwarded to me can be found <a href="http://www.slate.com/id/2177681/nav/navoa/" rel="nofollow">HERE</a>.  If anyone has other links about the tenuous connection, or not-so-tenuous perhaps - between breast-feeding and IQ please post them.  But let&#8217;s stop the implication that people who disagree with us must not understand the science.  We are all mostly unknown to one another and to assume that people who don&#8217;t agree with you are uneducated on the issue at hand is unproductive.</p>
<p>I have heard breast-feeding mothers be quite snippy about formula feeders in my presence.  I &#8220;pass&#8221; as a breast-feeder because there I am, breast-feeding twins in public so many people don&#8217;t realize I had to supplement with formula for the first six months.  The lack of compassion you can hear in &#8220;closed&#8221; groups where &#8220;everyone&#8221; is a breast-feeding mother can be sad.</p>
<p>Krissy, Heather, Hatchet. Sandi, Kate, Amy &#8212; Thank you.  </p>
<p>Trish - That anecdote is just disgusting.  That poor woman.  I am angry on her behalf.</p>
<p>Leaky - - &#8220;udderly&#8221;  *snicker*</p>
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		<title>By: Swistle</title>
		<link>http://twinkies.bastetweb.com/2007/11/29/why-i-shouldnt-check-my-referrals/#comment-7718</link>
		<dc:creator>Swistle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Dec 2007 07:24:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://twinkies.bastetweb.com/2007/11/29/why-i-shouldnt-check-my-referrals/#comment-7718</guid>
		<description>Oh, gag, I can't believe humanity sometimes.  I just want to SHAKE those stupid idiots.

I breastfed twins for over a year.  _I_ do this.  And I did it for the benefit of children I hope won't be stupid assholes like those ones who set up a FACEBOOK GROUP for the purpose of being rude and yucky.  Who does THAT?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, gag, I can&#8217;t believe humanity sometimes.  I just want to SHAKE those stupid idiots.</p>
<p>I breastfed twins for over a year.  _I_ do this.  And I did it for the benefit of children I hope won&#8217;t be stupid assholes like those ones who set up a FACEBOOK GROUP for the purpose of being rude and yucky.  Who does THAT?</p>
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		<title>By: Alice</title>
		<link>http://twinkies.bastetweb.com/2007/11/29/why-i-shouldnt-check-my-referrals/#comment-7701</link>
		<dc:creator>Alice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Dec 2007 16:44:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://twinkies.bastetweb.com/2007/11/29/why-i-shouldnt-check-my-referrals/#comment-7701</guid>
		<description>" 'udderly' disappointed."

*snicker*</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8221; &#8216;udderly&#8217; disappointed.&#8221;</p>
<p>*snicker*</p>
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		<title>By: Babyamore (Trish)</title>
		<link>http://twinkies.bastetweb.com/2007/11/29/why-i-shouldnt-check-my-referrals/#comment-7697</link>
		<dc:creator>Babyamore (Trish)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Dec 2007 04:47:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://twinkies.bastetweb.com/2007/11/29/why-i-shouldnt-check-my-referrals/#comment-7697</guid>
		<description>Stacie - I am saddened too that you have been violated and vilified in this way.You are an inspiration to many. I feel the same as you because I have BF (or EBM) my twins for 17 months now. Sadly there are not many positive examples out in the real world. I had little help from the Special care nursery staff ... I was left to fend for myself but I had read so many stories and I was determined so I perservered. I loved to read of twin mums breastfeeding - it gave me hope.
I know a twin mum who when pregnant was laughed at in antenatal classes by the whole group of other parents .The 'educator' joked and demontrated with the doll babies how ridiculous (it was made to it look) and hard BFing twins would be. 
This young mum did not even attempt to BF because of the experience. She was only twin mum in the class.
College students should have better things to do.I am glad the site was removed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stacie - I am saddened too that you have been violated and vilified in this way.You are an inspiration to many. I feel the same as you because I have BF (or EBM) my twins for 17 months now. Sadly there are not many positive examples out in the real world. I had little help from the Special care nursery staff &#8230; I was left to fend for myself but I had read so many stories and I was determined so I perservered. I loved to read of twin mums breastfeeding - it gave me hope.<br />
I know a twin mum who when pregnant was laughed at in antenatal classes by the whole group of other parents .The &#8216;educator&#8217; joked and demontrated with the doll babies how ridiculous (it was made to it look) and hard BFing twins would be.<br />
This young mum did not even attempt to BF because of the experience. She was only twin mum in the class.<br />
College students should have better things to do.I am glad the site was removed.</p>
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		<title>By: leakyandsnort</title>
		<link>http://twinkies.bastetweb.com/2007/11/29/why-i-shouldnt-check-my-referrals/#comment-7696</link>
		<dc:creator>leakyandsnort</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Dec 2007 04:32:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://twinkies.bastetweb.com/2007/11/29/why-i-shouldnt-check-my-referrals/#comment-7696</guid>
		<description>Also, it's a shame that a saddened student up there a) used the plural "women" when s/he meant "woman," and b) asked if "monkey's" breastfeed - obviously this student was asleep in your class.

AND, my own personal disappointment is that s/he lacked the humour to sign off as "udderly" disappointed.  Come on!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also, it&#8217;s a shame that a saddened student up there a) used the plural &#8220;women&#8221; when s/he meant &#8220;woman,&#8221; and b) asked if &#8220;monkey&#8217;s&#8221; breastfeed - obviously this student was asleep in your class.</p>
<p>AND, my own personal disappointment is that s/he lacked the humour to sign off as &#8220;udderly&#8221; disappointed.  Come on!</p>
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		<title>By: Katie</title>
		<link>http://twinkies.bastetweb.com/2007/11/29/why-i-shouldnt-check-my-referrals/#comment-7689</link>
		<dc:creator>Katie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Dec 2007 08:13:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://twinkies.bastetweb.com/2007/11/29/why-i-shouldnt-check-my-referrals/#comment-7689</guid>
		<description>Stacie, I'm really saddened to see this.  Since I've started reading your blog, you've become somewhat of an inspiration to me.  I gave up breastfeeding my son too easily, it was too hard and time consuming and basically I'm a wimp.  I wish I would have stuck with it, it's *my big regret*.  I know through your blog that if I'm ever blessed with another child, BF is on, and I can't thank you enough for that.  

PS.  I'm a college student, I respect you.  Forget the kids, they'll grow up in due time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stacie, I&#8217;m really saddened to see this.  Since I&#8217;ve started reading your blog, you&#8217;ve become somewhat of an inspiration to me.  I gave up breastfeeding my son too easily, it was too hard and time consuming and basically I&#8217;m a wimp.  I wish I would have stuck with it, it&#8217;s *my big regret*.  I know through your blog that if I&#8217;m ever blessed with another child, BF is on, and I can&#8217;t thank you enough for that.  </p>
<p>PS.  I&#8217;m a college student, I respect you.  Forget the kids, they&#8217;ll grow up in due time.</p>
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		<title>By: Jamie</title>
		<link>http://twinkies.bastetweb.com/2007/11/29/why-i-shouldnt-check-my-referrals/#comment-7687</link>
		<dc:creator>Jamie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Dec 2007 02:20:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://twinkies.bastetweb.com/2007/11/29/why-i-shouldnt-check-my-referrals/#comment-7687</guid>
		<description>I only breastfed my kids for 4 weeks tops. Not because I didn't want to, but because we ran into bumps in the road.  I consider my own IQ to be average. So when you put those two together, and look at "research,"  does that mean my kids are doomed to be stupid?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I only breastfed my kids for 4 weeks tops. Not because I didn&#8217;t want to, but because we ran into bumps in the road.  I consider my own IQ to be average. So when you put those two together, and look at &#8220;research,&#8221;  does that mean my kids are doomed to be stupid?</p>
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		<title>By: Casey</title>
		<link>http://twinkies.bastetweb.com/2007/11/29/why-i-shouldnt-check-my-referrals/#comment-7684</link>
		<dc:creator>Casey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Dec 2007 21:21:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://twinkies.bastetweb.com/2007/11/29/why-i-shouldnt-check-my-referrals/#comment-7684</guid>
		<description>Hah. I have heard many well-meaning breastfeeding moms totally bash non-breastfeeders - for being lazy, stupid, not caring about their children, etc. "In my experience", of course.

-Casey, she who breastfed her son for 14 months.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hah. I have heard many well-meaning breastfeeding moms totally bash non-breastfeeders - for being lazy, stupid, not caring about their children, etc. &#8220;In my experience&#8221;, of course.</p>
<p>-Casey, she who breastfed her son for 14 months.</p>
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		<title>By: Hilary</title>
		<link>http://twinkies.bastetweb.com/2007/11/29/why-i-shouldnt-check-my-referrals/#comment-7682</link>
		<dc:creator>Hilary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Dec 2007 19:33:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://twinkies.bastetweb.com/2007/11/29/why-i-shouldnt-check-my-referrals/#comment-7682</guid>
		<description>This conversation has already been successfully (and selfishly, IMO) derailed enough that I am not going to respond extensively on this thread to the two side arguments I addressed before. I think it is an all too common shame when conversations online about breastfeeding devolve into breastfeeding mom (and lactation consultant) bashing sessions, and I think it's bad enough that Stacie's former students are coming on here and being so ridiculous and offensive. Not having support from other moms who would rather unnecessarily project their own  issues onto the conversation, as I pointed out before, just helps the pile up on breastfeeders.

If I have time while studying for medical school finals, I may address these common thread derails AGAIN on my own blog. In the meantime, a survey of RECENT evidence (where there is some argument but vastly greater support for the association, and remember, meta analyses are not good determinants of causality) on PubMed may be a good idea for Alice, and "in my experience", these threads almost always devolve when people start saying what they think most breastfeeders really think about their struggling peers, which in MY experience, is usually empathy and sorrow, not judgment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This conversation has already been successfully (and selfishly, IMO) derailed enough that I am not going to respond extensively on this thread to the two side arguments I addressed before. I think it is an all too common shame when conversations online about breastfeeding devolve into breastfeeding mom (and lactation consultant) bashing sessions, and I think it&#8217;s bad enough that Stacie&#8217;s former students are coming on here and being so ridiculous and offensive. Not having support from other moms who would rather unnecessarily project their own  issues onto the conversation, as I pointed out before, just helps the pile up on breastfeeders.</p>
<p>If I have time while studying for medical school finals, I may address these common thread derails AGAIN on my own blog. In the meantime, a survey of RECENT evidence (where there is some argument but vastly greater support for the association, and remember, meta analyses are not good determinants of causality) on PubMed may be a good idea for Alice, and &#8220;in my experience&#8221;, these threads almost always devolve when people start saying what they think most breastfeeders really think about their struggling peers, which in MY experience, is usually empathy and sorrow, not judgment.</p>
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